Post by Mark K. BilboPost by DavidPost by Mark K. BilboPost by Jason GastrichPost by Mark K. BilboPost by Jason GastrichNeed I go on? There are countless more scriptures that show people
praying in public.
You just actually proved the point. You're trying to claim the
privileges of the Christ instead of obeying explicit *commands you
were given. Jesus may have prayed publicly but according to your
faith, he also walked on water and raised the dead. Will you do that
now?
None of the OT verses you posted *order you to do anything at all by
the
Post by Mark K. BilboPost by Jason GastrichYou don't understand Jesus' command or message.
Because, after all, only *you can understand being god's favorite lil'
sugar pants.
Post by Jason GastrichYour an atheist who would like public prayer to go away. Am I right?
As usual, you're wrong.
"Public" prayer is irrelevant. State support is the issue. I want
separation, not your strawman "oppression" lie.
Post by Jason GastrichJesus' message was regarding the heart; just as Davey said. He wants
people to be genuine as they pray and if people are only praying in
public
Post by Mark K. BilboPost by Jason Gastrichto draw attention to themselves, as the ones were that he was
correcting,
Post by Mark K. BilboPost by Jason Gastrichthen He would prefer that they didn't pray in public.
"But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast
shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father
which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."
I don't see any "unless you don't feel like it" in there.
Why do you suppose it goes out of its way to give the narrative context as
being the Pharisees?
Numerous Biblical figures, including Christ, prayed publically, but they
were not Pharisees.
Ah, yes. More spin.
Translation
"Here's an argument which shows that there's another side to the story, and
I can't argue with it, so I'll gloss over it as 'spin'."
Post by Mark K. BilboPost by DavidThe minute prayer becomes a matter either of works in order to gain
righteousness by the doing of them, or even worse becomes a matter of
appearing righteous in the eyes of third parties, then the closet beckons.
Nevertheless, there is a place for proper public prayer. If we take James
5v14, which was the first place my bible fell open when I went looking for
examples, we see the elders being asked to pray over a man. Presumably
they are not all doing this in private, but sharing prayers over the sick
man, anointing him.
Yet doesn't a single thing about going out in public so you can be seen
does it now?
Me no parsey sentencey.
Post by Mark K. BilboPost by DavidI'm sure it's possible to find numerous other examples in both the old and
new testament.
Yet none of the ones presented from the NT appear to conflict with the
injunction against public prayer.
What about where Christ says the Temple should be a House of Prayer?
Anyway, I am not going to push the matter. maybe you are right and every
single Church service I have ever seen is wrong. Maybe I'd better stop going
to Church and just stay at home praying.
Post by Mark K. BilboAnd far as the OT goes, if you're dispensationalist, you're trumped by the
church not being Israel...
Well I'm not.
I'm not a Fundamentalist, strictly speaking, I'm a Calvinist.
Uncle Davey
And now, plagiarised shamelessly without prior consent from
www.puritansermons.com , is a delightful cameo essay on the subject of
public prayer by John Newton, the author of "Amazing Grace".
"It is much to be desired, that our hearts might be so affected with a sense
of divine things and so closely engaged when we are worshipping God, that it
might not be in the power of little circumstances to interrupt and perplex
us, and to make us think the service wearisome and the time which we employ
in it tedious. But as our infirmities are many and great, and the enemy of
our souls is watchful to discompose us, if care is not taken by those who
lead in social prayer, the exercise which is approved by the judgment may
become a burden and an occasion of sin . . .
Length of Prayers
The chief fault of some good prayers is, that they are too long; not that I
think we should pray by the clock, and limit ourselves precisely to a
certain number of minutes; but it is better of the two, that the hearers
should wish the prayer had been longer, than spend half the time in wishing
it was over. This is frequently owing to an unnecessary enlargement upon
every circumstance that offers, as well as to the repetition of the same
things. If we have been copious in pleading for spiritual blessings, it may
be best to be brief and summary in the article of intercession for others,
or if the frame of our spirits, or the circumstances of affairs, lead us to
be more large and particular in laying the cases of others before the Lord
respect should be had to this intention in the former part of the prayer.
There are, doubtless, seasons when the Lord is pleased to favour those who
pray with a peculiar liberty: they speak because they feel; they have a
wrestling spirit and hardly know how to leave off. When this is the case,
those who join with them are seldom wearied, though the prayer should be
protracted something beyond the usual limits. But I believe it sometimes
happens, both in praying and in preaching, that we are apt to spin out our
time to the greatest length, when we have in reality the least to say. Long
prayers should in general be avoided, especially where several persons are
to pray successively; or else even spiritual hearers will be unable to keep
up their attention. And here I would just notice an impropriety we sometimes
meet with, that when a person gives expectation that he is just going to
conclude his prayer, something not thought of in its proper place occurring
that instant to his mind, leads him as it were to begin again. But unless it
is a matter of singular importance, it would be better omitted for that
time.
Preaching in Prayers
The prayers of some good men are more like preaching than praying. They
rather express the Lord's mind to the people, than the desires of the people
to the Lord. Indeed this can hardly be called prayer. It might in another
place stand for part of a good sermon, but will afford little help to those
who desire to pray with their hearts. Prayer should be sententious, and made
up of breathings to the Lord, either of confession, petition, or praise. It
should be not only Scriptural and evangelical, but experimental, a simple
and unstudied expression of the wants and feelings of the soul. It will be
so if the heart is lively and affected in the duty, it must be so if the
edification of others is the point in view.
Method in Prayer
Several books have been written to assist in the gift and exercise of
prayer, and many useful hints may be borrowed from them. But a too close
attention to the method therein recommended, gives an air of study and
formality, and offends against that simplicity which is so essentially
necessary to a good prayer, that no degree of acquired abilities can
compensate for the want of it. It is possible to learn to pray mechanically,
and by rule; but it is hardly possible to do so with acceptance and benefit
to others. When the several parts of invocation, adoration, confession,
petition, etc., follow each other in a stated order, the hearer's mind
generally goes before the speaker's voice, and we can form a tolerable
conjecture what is to come next. On this account we often find that
unlettered people who have had little or no help from books, or rather have
not been fettered by them, can pray with an unction and savour in an
unpremeditated way, while the prayers of persons of much superior abilities,
perhaps even of ministers themselves, are, though accurate and regular, so
dry and starched, then they afford little either of pleasure or profit to
spiritual mind. The spirit of prayer is the fruit and token of the Spirit of
adoption.
The studied addresses with which some approach the throne of grace remind us
of a stranger's coming to a great man's door; he knocks and waits, sends in
his name, and goes through a course of ceremony, before he gains admittance,
while a child of the family uses no ceremony at all, but enters freely when
he pleases, because he knows he is at home. It is true, we ought always to
draw near the Lord with great humiliation of spirit, and a sense of our
unworthiness. But this spirit is not always best expressed or promoted by a
pompous enumeration of the names and titles of the God with whom we have to
do, or by fixing in our minds beforehand the exact order in which we propose
to arrange the several parts of our prayer. Some attention to method may be
proper, for the prevention of repetitions; and plain people may be a little
defective in it sometimes; but this defect will not be half so tiresome and
disagreeable as a studied and artificial exactness.
Peculiarities of Manner
Many -- perhaps most -- people who pray in public have some favourite word
or expression which recurs too often in their prayers, and is frequently
used as a mere expletive, having no necessary connection with the sense of
what they are speaking. The most disagreeable of these is when the name of
the blessed God, with the addition perhaps of one or more epithets, as
Great, Glorious, Holy, Almighty, etc., is introduced so often and without
necessity, as seems neither to indicate a due reverence in the person who
uses It, nor suited to excite reverence in those who hear. I will not say
that this is taking the Name of God in vain, in the usual sense of the
phrase: it is, however, a great impropriety, and should be guarded against.
It would be well if they who use redundant expressions had a friend to give
them a caution so that they might with a little care be retrenched; and
hardly any person can be sensible of the little peculiarities he may
inadvertently adopt, unless he is told of them.
There are several things likewise respecting the voice and manner of prayer,
which a person may with due care correct in himself, and which, if generally
corrected, would make meetings for prayer more pleasant than sometimes they
are. . . Very loud speaking is a fault, when the size of the place and the
number of the hearers do not render it necessary. The end of speaking (in
public) is to be heard: and when that end is attained a greater elevation of
the voice is frequency hurtful to the speaker, and is more likely to confuse
a hearer than fix his attention. I do not deny but allowance must be made
for constitution, and the warmth of the passions, which dispose some persons
to speak louder than others. Yet such will do well to restrain themselves as
much as they can. It may seem indeed to indicate great earnestness, and that
the heart is much affected; yet it is often but false fire. It may be
thought speaking 'with power', but a person who is favoured with the Lord's
presence may pray with power in a moderate voice; and there may be very
little of the power of the Spirit, though the voice should be heard in the
street and neighbourhood.
The other extreme of speaking too low is not so frequent; but, if we are not
heard, we might as well altogether hold our peace. It exhausts the spirits
and wearies the attention, to be listening for any length of time to a very
low voice. Some words or sentences will be lost, which will render what is
heard less intelligible and agreeable. If the speaker can be heard by the
person furthest distant from him, the rest will hear of course.
The tone of the voice is likewise to be regarded. Some have a tone in prayer
so very different from their usual way of speaking, that their nearest
friends, if not accustomed to them, could hardly know them by their voice.
Sometimes the tone is changed, perhaps more than once, so that if our eyes
did not give us more certain information than our ears, we might think two
or three persons had been speaking by turns. It is a pity that when we
approve what is spoken we should be so easily disconcerted by an awkwardness
of delivery: yet so it often is, and probably so it will be, in the present
weak and imperfect state of human nature. It is more to be lamented than
wondered at, that sincere Christians are sometimes forced to confess: 'He is
a good man, and his prayers as to their substance are spiritual and
judicious, but there is something so displeasing in his manner that I am
always uneasy when I hear him'.
Informality in Prayer
Contrary to this, and still more offensive, is a custom that some have of
talking to the Lord in prayer. It is their natural voice indeed, but it is
that expression of it which they use upon the most familiar and trivial
occasions. The human voice is capable of so many inflections and variations,
that it can adapt itself to the different sensations of the mind, as joy,
sorrow, fear, desire, etc. If a man was pleading for his life, or expressing
his thanks to the king for a pardon, common sense and decency would teach
him a suitableness of manner; and anyone who could not understand his
language might know by the sound of his words that he was not making a
bargain or telling a story. How much more, when we speak to the King of
kings, should the consideration of his glory and our own vileness, and of
the important concerns we are engaged in before him, impress us with an air
of seriousness and reverence, and prevent us from speaking to him as if he
was altogether such an one as ourselves! The liberty to which we are called
by the gospel does not at all encourage such a pertness and familiarity as
would be unbecoming to use towards a fellow-worm, who was a little advanced
above us in worldly dignity.
I shall be glad if these hints may be of any service to those who desire to
worship God in spirit and in truth, and who wish that whatever has a
tendency to damp the spirit of devotion, either in themselves or in others,
might be avoided."